Curse

English Warrior · Aug 07, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

if shadow form gets nerfed people will always find something else at the end of the day yes this is the fastest we have cleared areas probably wont be anything faster but its different era's of GW, the areas wont be as fast when it gets nerfed but the prices of ectos and ambraces will go up with SF's nerfs so even though longer runs probably same amount of cash earned.

Jeydra · Aug 08, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

I have yet to see one valid argument claiming how SF has hurt their abilities to do anything in this game without using it. Perhaps people should set aside their one-sided viewpoints and take a step back. Step back and look at what would happen without SF there. Will it magically cause people to be "better players" and choose to run balanced teams? No. Will it cause people to leave that area completely, if not THE GAME and go elsewhere? Likely. Nerfing SF will only serve to hurt the game for anyone who isn't already part of a guild/alliance that does these areas with balanced groups effectively.

Tell me ... would you approve of the following skill balance change?

You Move Like A Dwarf! Energy cost decrease 10e -> 5e, recharge decrease 10s -> 0s, damage increase 80 @ 10 Norn -> 10,000 damage @ 10 Norn.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 08, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Here's my opinion:

Make Shadow Form have an automatic recharge like the Avatar spells (but without any means of getting it permanent again like Avatars) and then take away or severely reduce the "lose all but X health" penalty at the end.

Are people using SF to make tanks in a game never made for tanks? To speed clear an area not meant to be fast and easy? RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO 'em. Those sorts of people shouldn't even be considered except to stop their bullshit.

Snow Bunny · Aug 08, 2009, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Ok, all your half-baked arguments of elitism and shit aside...

why should there exist a profession-specific skill that grants maintainable invincibility?

A11Eur0 · Aug 08, 2009, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Totally agree. A11Eur0- is obviously scared to death by the potential SF nerf. Looks like many players will have to learn guild wars all over again. "WTF I had totally forgot about this red bar known as life".

You obviously don't know how I play the game. I don't speed clear (any more). I don't really do much at all, just sit around and talk..sometimes trade stuff. After they changed shadow form's duration and recharge to make it more energy-intensive I decided it was time to just go do other stuff...so I finished GWAMM on my warrior. Now I don't really have much else to do but take characters through dungeons because everything else is stale, SF or not. GW needs more content, not just a nerf or change to skills and builds. I'm not blaming the stagnation of the game on any one skill or combination of skills, but by the sheer age of the game itself.

I think this is what most people are doing: taking a game with limited remaining "fun" content and blaming the lack of anything else to do on the flavor of the month build. It's not SF that is making the game stale.

Snow Bunny's above comment illustrates what I've been saying all along: you seem to think that SF is "invincibility" when it's far from it. Please, try using the builds in areas aside from UW or FoW, or try to just run in and tank in areas such as FoW, the Crystal Desert, etc. It won't work. It's not INVINCIBILITY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Tell me ... would you approve of the following skill balance change?

You Move Like A Dwarf! Energy cost decrease 10e -> 5e, recharge decrease 10s -> 0s, damage increase 80 @ 10 Norn -> 10,000 damage @ 10 Norn.

No, and I wouldn't support the following skill change:

Shadow Form: Energy cost decrease 15e>5e, recharge decrease 45s>20s, functionality changed to "For 20 seconds, you cannot take damage or lose health."

Because that would be more like what you're suggesting, and this is what most people think the skill really IS, but it's not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Try reading my post again - or hell, for the first time.

I wasn't referring to your post at all. Take note of how many other people have discussed in this thread.

Jeydra · Aug 08, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

No, and I wouldn't support the following skill change:

Shadow Form: Energy cost decrease 15e>5e, recharge decrease 45s>20s, functionality changed to "For 20 seconds, you cannot take damage or lose health."

Because that would be more like what you're suggesting, and this is what most people think the skill really IS, but it's not.

Why isn't the skill that?

Don't tell me "because Shadow Form has counters", because lots of areas do not have the appropriate counters and in any case You Move Like A Dwarf! has counters as welll.

Burst Cancel · Aug 08, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Because that would be more like what you're suggesting, and this is what most people think the skill really IS, but it's not.

Not relevant. You were arguing that SF doesn't affect anyone's ability to play how they want. If that's the case, why wouldn't you support other overpowered changes, like the 10k damage YMLAD or your own SF modification? After all, you don't think they would affect anyone else.

Quote:

I wasn't referring to your post at all. Take note of how many other people have discussed in this thread.

I know you weren't; that doesn't make your elitism argument any less wrong.

capashen · Aug 08, 2009, 05:42 AM // 05:42

this is a little (a lot) Off-topic ... but ... why ppl just want rare skins so deeply?
a q 13 eteral blade ( 100e more or less?) with " i have the power" and +20% ench ha sthe same stats of a totem axe or razajan fervor that cost a lot less ....this is the GW's best idea 5k --->best equip

Chocobo1 · Aug 08, 2009, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by capashen

this is a little (a lot) Off-topic ... but ... why ppl just want rare skins so deeply?
a q 13 eteral blade ( 100e more or less?) with " i have the power" and +20% ench ha sthe same stats of a totem axe or razajan fervor that cost a lot less ....this is the GW's best idea 5k --->best equip

People like to look pretty.

Ugh · Aug 08, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipersmurf

i've honestly noticed that ppl always complain about things because then can't do it

THIS:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ME! For the third time!

1 > 2 > 3

Got it?
That's what it takes to perma. When you see that purdy little SF icon start to flicker, do it again. If you can count to three, you have achieved invincibility in GW.

Quote:

just because someone doesnt have the skill to do something doesnt mean they have to be babies cause others can

I'm not even going to comment on this because it would just be me being an asshole and barraging you with insults. I'll keep them to myself.

Quote:

ppl crying and getting it nerfed cause they are pmsing

You're not making this very easy on my willpower. T.T

Quote:

you should just do things your way and let others do it their way

How do I do things my way when the only way people do things is the most ridiculously efficient way? Groups for UW don't happen unless they're SCs.

Quote:

I have yet to see one valid argument claiming how SF has hurt their abilities to do anything in this game without using it.

Oh dear God. HAVING SHADOW FORM MEANS THAT EVERYTHING ELSE IS INFERIOR AND IGNORED. NOTHING ELSE IS RAN. And don't tell me to find a guild that will do regular runs. I'm not going to find new friends for UW.

Quote:

Why shouldn't SF be nerfed? It is easy to just mash your face on the keyboard and complete everything with ease. Of course it should be nerfed so people actually need to try in pve again, well "kind of" try.

Missions such as FoW and UW were meant to be difficult and completing them in less than 20 minutes defeats the purpose of why they are there in the first place. I suggest they either nerf it hard or they just remove end mission chests because the reward exceeds the effort put into a speed clear.

These missions should be difficult and they are meant to take time, the whole "people can do it that don't have time" argument is completely void as a-net is not catering to these people. If you don't have time then don't enter the mission and you can do it later when you do have time. It also makes no sense when a majority of people that are doing these speed clears and abusing shadow form are not the people with little time to play but they are grinding these missions with shadow form.

A11 stop using the little time to play argument because it is a false argument.

Give it a smiters boon nerf.

Love this post. Except the last part. I would prefer a functionality change to fill a niche in sin builds instead of just throwing another useless skill on the pile.

Quote:

this is a little (a lot) Off-topic ... but ... why ppl just want rare skins so deeply?

e-peen

capashen · Aug 08, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Sf is just as bad as Ursan so it should be nerfed but a ot of ppl would left Guildwars if it will happen .... no ability involved just routine ... to drop what a nice ammount of pixel? this is a nice point for your curriculum vitae!

upier · Aug 08, 2009, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

why should there exist a profession-specific skill that grants maintainable invincibility?

Because it's fun?

capashen · Aug 08, 2009, 08:53 AM // 08:53

no Sf isn't fun... if u clear uw in hm 30 mins without and ability where is the fun? the fun is achieving a hard aim using your skills

upier · Aug 08, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by capashen

no Sf isn't fun... if u clear uw in hm 30 mins without and ability where is the fun? the fun is achieving a hard aim using your skills

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena...008#Assassin_2

Quote:

Assassin

* Shadow Form: recharge reduced to 45 seconds. Duration reduced to 5..21 seconds.

After repeated adjustments to both the skill and the Underworld, Shadow Form continues to dominate PvE farming. All the adjustments we have made to this style of farming have aimed to slow players down but not eliminate it as a viable farming option. We recognize the fact that farming with Shadow Form-based builds can be really fun, so we have not resorted to breaking the ability to keep Shadow Form up permanently. However, we continue to be uncomfortable with the speed in which players are able to complete various popular farming runs. We have decided to try one last time to scale down the effectiveness of Shadow Form while still allowing it to be maintained permanently.

By reducing the recharge and duration time, we force players to cast Shadow Form more frequently, which in turn increases the Energy pressure associated with maintaining the skill. For Assassins with modest Energy pools, this results in more conservative Energy management through weapon swaps and lowers damage per second as damaging skills have to be cast less frequently in favor of saving up enough Energy to cast Shadow Form again. For non-Assassin primary characters (such as the Elementalist with an Energy pool large enough to worry less about Energy pressure) this change makes maintaining Shadow Form a much more delicate balance. There is little margin of error because it requires a full spectrum of skills, consumables, and weapon swaps to simultaneously increase the duration and reduce the recharge of Shadow Form enough to maintain it permanently.

Surely you are mistaken?

It might be a LOT easier to deal with this game if we just accept that when it comes to PvE, A.Net doesn't have the priorities we think they should have.

capashen · Aug 08, 2009, 09:44 AM // 09:44

thanks god anet isn't god ! sf isn't fun just easy and it is different

Warrior Babes · Aug 08, 2009, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by capashen

no Sf isn't fun... if u clear uw in hm 30 mins without and ability where is the fun? the fun is achieving a hard aim using your skills

who are you to say whats fun and not?
some ppl dont like smashing there keyboard trought an area for 1h+

i bet 80% of the players who say SF needs to get nerfed never even used the skills in ''high end'' places. lets go UW, u think all of those uwsc groups make it? just so u know, but 1/10 (pug)groups fail..

And u guys rly think SF nerf is gone make this game so much better? u think all those SF dudes will say: ''oh it got nerfed, lets go balanced now''?

my bet is just that there will come some new gimmick, lets say FoW.. it used RoJmonks and sins (mesmers and rt or ranger in more exp groups). then RoJ got fixed, and cry got ''nerfed''. We just found a new gimmick build.
well.. now the team needs rt/sin/ranger or rt/Necro/monk (could even bring a mesmer instead of the necro).. i see alot of classes here, so dont say '' we dont get the chance to play because of SF''

what will change when they nerf SF..hmm, monks will take over again.. what about 4x 600/smite teams? yes they can still complete the area in under 30mins.. we already see this is some VFFF places

owh and every1 complaining about the ''economy'.. ye right its a game
what u think that will happen with the SF nerf? when lets say.. UWSC will get longer (maybe not) ectos will raise yes? back to 5-6k/ea? i mean.. alot of ppl will like this chance. i'm sure u know ppl have stacks of ectos.

now about the "SF doesnt let me play the game my way". If u rly think that, u dont have to play this game, istead of saying ppl who like to use SF HAS to leave the game. But anyways.. Go ToA.. and yes u can make a balanced team there.. u just dont want, try harder! I do that sometimes (not only in toa) ok it might take 40mins + to form, but thats not my problem

~ Babes

JONO51 · Aug 08, 2009, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Claiming that "new, unskilled players shouldn't be in these areas" is hands-down an ELITIST STATEMENT. It stinks of it. Who are you to claim that new players shouldn't be ALLOWED or ABLE to partake in 100% of the game they shelled out money for?

That's just dumb. Think about it, if anything, its SF that prevents the new players from getting into the area. These people come to ToA looking to try UW, and find they either run SF, or hope to god they have a guild willing to run an old balanced build, bearing in mind that 90% of pug guilds will run SF.

So, what can the casual player do to try out these areas? Well, they have to level up an assassin, get the skills, equip and weapons. Then they have to learn the routes, tough parts and the quests, things that are going to be hard to understand without being able to enter to get a feel for the area.

So, the player enters ToA, after spending probably 20 hours setting up this character, a fair chunk of their time considering they are a casual player. They get a group, enter UW then try to complete their job. However, they take a while finding their area, only having a very loose understanding of the area. Aren't that quick as they may have to reposition if they ignore a group that turns out to be a patrol etc. That's not even counting the chances they have for dying, because as you say, SF isn't complete invulnerability.

So the group gets pissed, they get flamed, and chances are the player gets pissed too, as after all, they spent a good chuck of their play time setting up for something they cant do due to lack of experience.

So they ask their guild for help, hope to god someone is nice enough to teach them a run, then spend a further 5-10 hours learning the area, the problems etc. As well as having to spend their hard earned cash on celerities for this.

Why do they do this? So they can partake in UW groups and get to experience the content these so called "anti-SF elitists" want to stop them from seeing. Now if you were a casual player, would you go through all that just to play UW? I know I wouldn't.

Now compare this to the "pug balanced" aka holy trinity of all. Sure, it sucked back in the old days for certain profs (rits, para's, mes's, sins, dervs), but now, the zquests and more frequent grouping with these profs has highlighted to even the most narrow minded players, that these professions can take part in groups. A para can be an imabagon, a mes can run VoR cry, a rit can spam splinter on your warrior and use SoS. Sins and dervs can function as a front-liner due to pve skills and recent buffs. This doesn't seem to me like "anti-SF elitists" wanting to prevent access to elite area's. In fact, it means the player spends an hour or two setting up skills and equip, then are done and can jump right in. No need to level up title tracks, learn solo routes, levels characters and outfitting a new character.

If you ask me, the "elitists" are the SF supporters.

fin.

zwei2stein · Aug 08, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena...008#Assassin_2

Surely you are mistaken?

It might be a LOT easier to deal with this game if we just accept that when it comes to PvE, A.Net doesn't have the priorities we think they should have.

"Fun" in farming shaddowsform was casting it, running into mob and trying to kill em all & picking drops before it ran out.

"Fun" was slivering boss and seeing if you can down him in one cast because it was all you had (oh, the joys to using shock on scar eater to make sure he did not cast heal, now THAT was fun).

SF did not need to be breaking game to be fun, it did not need to be buffed to be easily maintained.

capashen · Aug 08, 2009, 10:45 AM // 10:45

and i have never seen casual player be grouped for UWSC

upier · Aug 08, 2009, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

That's just dumb. Think about it, if anything, its SF that prevents the new players from getting into the area. These people come to ToA looking to try UW, and find they either run SF, or hope to god they have a guild willing to run an old balanced build, bearing in mind that 90% of pug guilds will run SF.

So, what can the casual player do to try out these areas? Well, they have to level up an assassin, get the skills, equip and weapons. Then they have to learn the routes, tough parts and the quests, things that are going to be hard to understand without being able to enter to get a feel for the area.

So, the player enters ToA, after spending probably 20 hours setting up this character, a fair chunk of their time considering they are a casual player. They get a group, enter UW then try to complete their job. However, they take a while finding their area, only having a very loose understanding of the area. Aren't that quick as they may have to reposition if they ignore a group that turns out to be a patrol etc. That's not even counting the chances they have for dying, because as you say, SF isn't complete invulnerability.

So the group gets pissed, they get flamed, and chances are the player gets pissed too, as after all, they spent a good chuck of their play time setting up for something they cant do due to lack of experience.

So they ask their guild for help, hope to god someone is nice enough to teach them a run, then spend a further 5-10 hours learning the area, the problems etc. As well as having to spend their hard earned cash on celerities for this.

Why do they do this? So they can partake in UW groups and get to experience the content these so called "anti-SF elitists" want to stop them from seeing. Now if you were a casual player, would you go through all that just to play UW? I know I wouldn't.

Now compare this to the "pug balanced" aka holy trinity of all. Sure, it sucked back in the old days for certain profs (rits, para's, mes's, sins, dervs), but now, the zquests and more frequent grouping with these profs has highlighted to even the most narrow minded players, that these professions can take part in groups. A para can be an imabagon, a mes can run VoR cry, a rit can spam splinter on your warrior and use SoS. Sins and dervs can function as a front-liner due to pve skills and recent buffs. This doesn't seem to me like "anti-SF elitists" wanting to prevent access to elite area's. In fact, it means the player spends an hour or two setting up skills and equip, then are done and can jump right in. No need to level up title tracks, learn solo routes, levels characters and outfitting a new character.

If you ask me, the "elitists" are the SF supporters.

fin.

SF isn't used to "play" an area.
It's used to "farm" an area.
I don't want "players" in my "farming" team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

"Fun" in farming shaddowsform was casting it, running into mob and trying to kill em all & picking drops before it ran out.

"Fun" was slivering boss and seeing if you can down him in one cast because it was all you had (oh, the joys to using shock on scar eater to make sure he did not cast heal, now THAT was fun).

SF did not need to be breaking game to be fun, it did not need to be buffed to be easily maintained.

Translation:
"fun" to you means potentially failing.

I am guessing that are not many FARMERS that feel that way.